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	<title>Comments on: The Forge and Indie RPGs</title>
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	<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/</link>
	<description>The blogs of Tim Hall</description>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-600</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve only played TORG for high-fantasy scenarios (GMed, as it happens, by Michael). I&#039;ve never played it using the TORG setting, although I have to admit that &#039;Hollywood Action Movie&#039; isn&#039;t really my favourite genre.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve only played TORG for high-fantasy scenarios (GMed, as it happens, by Michael). I&#8217;ve never played it using the TORG setting, although I have to admit that &#8216;Hollywood Action Movie&#8217; isn&#8217;t really my favourite genre.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ahh, TORG!

Sorry, I adore that game more than any other.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh, TORG!</p>
<p>Sorry, I adore that game more than any other.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Loads of gamers have spent years searching for the One True System, only to find it doesn&#039;t exist.

I&#039;ve long recognised that there&#039;s no one perfect system, and there are plenty of good systems with different different strengths and weaknesses. Even those systems marketed as universal generic systems tend to have a lot of genre assumptions built into the rules at a fundamental level, something that fans of the systems tend of overlook.  

I strongly suspect most of those people who always convert everything they play to Hero, or GURPS, or Fudge, or (shudder) d20 end up playing the same effective genre all the time, only with different scenery and props.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loads of gamers have spent years searching for the One True System, only to find it doesn&#8217;t exist.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long recognised that there&#8217;s no one perfect system, and there are plenty of good systems with different different strengths and weaknesses. Even those systems marketed as universal generic systems tend to have a lot of genre assumptions built into the rules at a fundamental level, something that fans of the systems tend of overlook.  </p>
<p>I strongly suspect most of those people who always convert everything they play to Hero, or GURPS, or Fudge, or (shudder) d20 end up playing the same effective genre all the time, only with different scenery and props.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that TORG has the best mechanics for the &quot;Action&quot; genre, but it doesn&#039;t support investigation or high fantasy scenarios all that well.

The dice can provide moments of inspriation that change the game world - for example using TORG die rolls to determine the skill of an NPC in the Ancient Greek an unexpected result of 87 (where a score of 15 or so would have indicated fluency) revealed there was a good reason why she used the name &quot;Medusa&quot; when out on the net.

The dice should never be used to govern character development. I gave up on the RQ system when I failed to make a POW gain roll in a campaign playing alternate Sundays for 2 years.

The quest for the one perfect RPG system is doomed becasue no generic system can beat a system explictly designed to support a genre.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that TORG has the best mechanics for the &#8220;Action&#8221; genre, but it doesn&#8217;t support investigation or high fantasy scenarios all that well.</p>
<p>The dice can provide moments of inspriation that change the game world &#8211; for example using TORG die rolls to determine the skill of an NPC in the Ancient Greek an unexpected result of 87 (where a score of 15 or so would have indicated fluency) revealed there was a good reason why she used the name &#8220;Medusa&#8221; when out on the net.</p>
<p>The dice should never be used to govern character development. I gave up on the RQ system when I failed to make a POW gain roll in a campaign playing alternate Sundays for 2 years.</p>
<p>The quest for the one perfect RPG system is doomed becasue no generic system can beat a system explictly designed to support a genre.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve always thought the DnD magic system sucked :)

I think your 80s DnD games were a good example of what Ron Edwards of The Forge calls &#039;Dysfunctional Gaming&#039;.  The system didn&#039;t support the narrative structure the group wanted, so the GM ended up patching the system with unofficial house rules, which it appears he didn&#039;t even tell the players about.  That approach tends to lead to player dissatisfaction, as you found.

I think explicit mechanics like Fudge Points or Torg&#039;s Possiblities are always preferable to consistantly fudging dice rolls. 

Personally I always think it&#039;s a good idea to structure games so that one freak die roll doesn&#039;t ruin things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always thought the DnD magic system sucked <img src='http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think your 80s DnD games were a good example of what Ron Edwards of The Forge calls &#8216;Dysfunctional Gaming&#8217;.  The system didn&#8217;t support the narrative structure the group wanted, so the GM ended up patching the system with unofficial house rules, which it appears he didn&#8217;t even tell the players about.  That approach tends to lead to player dissatisfaction, as you found.</p>
<p>I think explicit mechanics like Fudge Points or Torg&#8217;s Possiblities are always preferable to consistantly fudging dice rolls. </p>
<p>Personally I always think it&#8217;s a good idea to structure games so that one freak die roll doesn&#8217;t ruin things.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-595</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t read The Forge, but I agree early RPG systems have a huge problem with dysfunctional dice. The only system that really works is the common consensus among all people around the table as to the fundamental structure of the story being generated. The GM has a duty to ignore all rolls which would breach that convention, a player who does not understand the convention cannot enjoy the game.

When I used to play D&amp;D back in the early 1980s my spell casters gave up casting any spells which had a saving throw because they never worked. I did not understand then that the DM was fixing the rolls because the big fight at the end had to last a certain amount of time. When I did realise what was going on I changed my playing style: since the bad guy could not be defeated in the first few rounds of combat I ignored them.

Now if the GM had said &quot;Your spell struck home, but a talisman hanging round the villan&#039;s neck absorbed it and has crmubled to dust&quot; I would have been much happier!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read The Forge, but I agree early RPG systems have a huge problem with dysfunctional dice. The only system that really works is the common consensus among all people around the table as to the fundamental structure of the story being generated. The GM has a duty to ignore all rolls which would breach that convention, a player who does not understand the convention cannot enjoy the game.</p>
<p>When I used to play D&#038;D back in the early 1980s my spell casters gave up casting any spells which had a saving throw because they never worked. I did not understand then that the DM was fixing the rolls because the big fight at the end had to last a certain amount of time. When I did realise what was going on I changed my playing style: since the bad guy could not be defeated in the first few rounds of combat I ignored them.</p>
<p>Now if the GM had said &#8220;Your spell struck home, but a talisman hanging round the villan&#8217;s neck absorbed it and has crmubled to dust&#8221; I would have been much happier!</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/the-forge-and-indie-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kalyr.co.uk/wordpress/?p=318#comment-594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, I&#039;ll begin by saying that I initially read that line as &quot;But one of forum fondler and moderator...&quot; and so I really should go change my contacts instead of replying.

Aside from that little &quot;Whuh?&quot; moment, I mostly agree.  The problem I have is that &quot;fixing&quot; the dysfunctional dice issue (mentioned off in Carl&#039;s blog, and in our proto-podcast that he hasn&#039;t edited yet so no one has heard it) is difficult without stepping on the GM&#039;s role.  And yeah, I don&#039;t like that, as a GM *or* player.

Basically, I want my games to work the way the plot coupons and whatnot do only without being so crass as to actually use, you know, plot coupons and whatnot.  Heck, we can&#039;t even manage to use Fudge Points.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I&#8217;ll begin by saying that I initially read that line as &#8220;But one of forum fondler and moderator&#8230;&#8221; and so I really should go change my contacts instead of replying.</p>
<p>Aside from that little &#8220;Whuh?&#8221; moment, I mostly agree.  The problem I have is that &#8220;fixing&#8221; the dysfunctional dice issue (mentioned off in Carl&#8217;s blog, and in our proto-podcast that he hasn&#8217;t edited yet so no one has heard it) is difficult without stepping on the GM&#8217;s role.  And yeah, I don&#8217;t like that, as a GM *or* player.</p>
<p>Basically, I want my games to work the way the plot coupons and whatnot do only without being so crass as to actually use, you know, plot coupons and whatnot.  Heck, we can&#8217;t even manage to use Fudge Points.</p>
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