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	<title>Comments on: RPG theory is a load of cobblers.</title>
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	<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/</link>
	<description>The blogs of Tim Hall</description>
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		<title>By: David Meadows</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69930</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Meadows]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2015 15:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69930</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do like your distinction of &quot;supportive&quot; systems vs &quot;unsupportive&quot; systems. That&#039;s probably the most useful way of categorising systems I&#039;ve come across.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do like your distinction of &#8220;supportive&#8221; systems vs &#8220;unsupportive&#8221; systems. That&#8217;s probably the most useful way of categorising systems I&#8217;ve come across.</p>
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		<title>By: ObjectiveReality</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ObjectiveReality]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2015 02:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, I think you&#039;re right in that a really good GM can make any system at all work for anything, but as Tim points out above in the case of Deadlands that means scrapping the rules as written for most mechanical situations. A GM could choose to use D20 Deadlands, but that&#039;s a choice of system as well as a GM technique.

Great GMs are great (and awful ones can make anything suck) but supportive systems are still better than unsupportive ones, if only because they make the GM do less mechanical thinking and free them up for more fun-focused stuff.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I think you&#8217;re right in that a really good GM can make any system at all work for anything, but as Tim points out above in the case of Deadlands that means scrapping the rules as written for most mechanical situations. A GM could choose to use D20 Deadlands, but that&#8217;s a choice of system as well as a GM technique.</p>
<p>Great GMs are great (and awful ones can make anything suck) but supportive systems are still better than unsupportive ones, if only because they make the GM do less mechanical thinking and free them up for more fun-focused stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: David Meadows</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69901</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Meadows]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2015 16:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69901</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve never &quot;studied&quot; RPGs, but I&#039;ve been playing them for 35 years, using multiple systems from five different decades, and in that time I have deduced, through observation, one &quot;rule&quot; that I believe to be the only thing you need to understand to have a good game:

It&#039;s not the rules, it&#039;s the GM.

So in in the context of this blog post: if someone wants to evolve a &quot;theory&quot; of RPGs, they need to study people not rules, and educate GMs not design new rules.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never &#8220;studied&#8221; RPGs, but I&#8217;ve been playing them for 35 years, using multiple systems from five different decades, and in that time I have deduced, through observation, one &#8220;rule&#8221; that I believe to be the only thing you need to understand to have a good game:</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not the rules, it&#8217;s the GM.</p>
<p>So in in the context of this blog post: if someone wants to evolve a &#8220;theory&#8221; of RPGs, they need to study people not rules, and educate GMs not design new rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69895</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2015 22:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69895</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Suspect the thing with Deadlands is that people fell in love the setting so much they overlooked the obvious flaws in the system.
 
First there was that obtuse dice mechanic that I&#039;m sure was never properly playtested because it threw up way too many extreme results. Then there was ridiculously cumbersome combat initiative system that really bogged down fight scenes if you had a large group.

I remember one day-long convention-style one shot game where we never actually got to the end of the adventure because an incidental fight scene ended up taking more than three hours to resolve, and ate up too much of the session.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suspect the thing with Deadlands is that people fell in love the setting so much they overlooked the obvious flaws in the system.</p>
<p>First there was that obtuse dice mechanic that I&#8217;m sure was never properly playtested because it threw up way too many extreme results. Then there was ridiculously cumbersome combat initiative system that really bogged down fight scenes if you had a large group.</p>
<p>I remember one day-long convention-style one shot game where we never actually got to the end of the adventure because an incidental fight scene ended up taking more than three hours to resolve, and ate up too much of the session.</p>
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		<title>By: ObjectiveReality</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69884</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ObjectiveReality]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2015 00:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69884</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hear good reports from people who do things, but have little time to actually play myself at the moment so don&#039;t know. I have a real love-hate thing with Deadlands - so much awesome, and so many brain-crushing idiocies all at once.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear good reports from people who do things, but have little time to actually play myself at the moment so don&#8217;t know. I have a real love-hate thing with Deadlands &#8211; so much awesome, and so many brain-crushing idiocies all at once.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2015 22:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see a lot of The Forge&#039;s attitude as a reaction against the excesses of the games that came before it.  

The fashion then was to release a &quot;core rulebook&quot; that didn&#039;t include important bits of the rules and setting you needed to actually play, which were then dribbled out over multiple sourcebooks, all of which you needed for a coherent game. Then there were the dreaded &quot;metaplots&quot;, where there was a storyline dribbled out over the same sourcebooks which people&#039;s campaigns had to follow if they wanted to avoid being contradicted by the next supplement. And some of the systems were baroque to the point of unplayable (several elements of Deadlands still bring me out in hives!)

Burning Wheel is one of those games I own but have never played;   It&#039;s a bit of a hybrid; it&#039;s got a lot of elements of a tradiional game, along with some stranger things like the explicit scene-framing mechanic and the scripted combat system. Since I&#039;ve never actually played I have no idea how well it worls.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see a lot of The Forge&#8217;s attitude as a reaction against the excesses of the games that came before it.  </p>
<p>The fashion then was to release a &#8220;core rulebook&#8221; that didn&#8217;t include important bits of the rules and setting you needed to actually play, which were then dribbled out over multiple sourcebooks, all of which you needed for a coherent game. Then there were the dreaded &#8220;metaplots&#8221;, where there was a storyline dribbled out over the same sourcebooks which people&#8217;s campaigns had to follow if they wanted to avoid being contradicted by the next supplement. And some of the systems were baroque to the point of unplayable (several elements of Deadlands still bring me out in hives!)</p>
<p>Burning Wheel is one of those games I own but have never played;   It&#8217;s a bit of a hybrid; it&#8217;s got a lot of elements of a tradiional game, along with some stranger things like the explicit scene-framing mechanic and the scripted combat system. Since I&#8217;ve never actually played I have no idea how well it worls.</p>
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		<title>By: ObjectiveReality</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ObjectiveReality]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2015 22:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There seem to be quite a few people here in NZ who are taking bits of Forge-ism and doing interesting things (&quot;Monster Of The Week&quot;, &quot;Burning Wheel&quot; etc. etc.) and lots of people seem to dig things like Fiasco.

That said, you&#039;re right that the coherent bits of Forge-ism seem to boil down to &quot;have a really clear idea of what your game&#039;s about and try to make everything come into line with that&quot; - which was probably a necessary thing to say post D&amp;D-fading-into-Storyteller in the 90s, but does seem kind of obvious in hindsight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seem to be quite a few people here in NZ who are taking bits of Forge-ism and doing interesting things (&#8220;Monster Of The Week&#8221;, &#8220;Burning Wheel&#8221; etc. etc.) and lots of people seem to dig things like Fiasco.</p>
<p>That said, you&#8217;re right that the coherent bits of Forge-ism seem to boil down to &#8220;have a really clear idea of what your game&#8217;s about and try to make everything come into line with that&#8221; &#8211; which was probably a necessary thing to say post D&amp;D-fading-into-Storyteller in the 90s, but does seem kind of obvious in hindsight.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69858</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2015 07:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69858</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In Nomine is a good example of one of those games with a great setting held back by a mediocre system. Not tried a conversion but I think it would work well with FATE. GURPS was completely wrong for it, though.

I fell out of love with GURPS when it went from 3e to 4e. It had reached the stage where the amount of accumulated cruft from myriad supplements was making it creak, and it didn&#039;t scale well enough to be a good fit for higher-powered games. But 4e seemed to lose too much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Nomine is a good example of one of those games with a great setting held back by a mediocre system. Not tried a conversion but I think it would work well with FATE. GURPS was completely wrong for it, though.</p>
<p>I fell out of love with GURPS when it went from 3e to 4e. It had reached the stage where the amount of accumulated cruft from myriad supplements was making it creak, and it didn&#8217;t scale well enough to be a good fit for higher-powered games. But 4e seemed to lose too much.</p>
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		<title>By: Amadan</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/rpg-theory-is-a-load-of-cobblers/comment-page-1/#comment-69853</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amadan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2015 22:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=12651#comment-69853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I want to say &quot;console gaming&quot; in answer to the last question, but the RPG industry, while much pared down, is still alive, but GURPS is now hardly more than a side hobby for SJG. (I think in his last stakeholders report, SJ said that RPGs amount to less than 10% of the company&#039;s revenue.)

SJG has always had management problems, largely to do with maintaining a consistent editorial vision. (What, me bitter over the demise of In Nomine? Nah...)

I do think Ron Edwards&#039; Sorcerer was rather inspired and I&#039;d still like to run another game someday. But I never got into FATE. And if I run a game nowadays, I&#039;d be unlikely to use something like GURPS, despite my several shelves full of GURPS supplements, unless my group consists entirely of gaming grognards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to say &#8220;console gaming&#8221; in answer to the last question, but the RPG industry, while much pared down, is still alive, but GURPS is now hardly more than a side hobby for SJG. (I think in his last stakeholders report, SJ said that RPGs amount to less than 10% of the company&#8217;s revenue.)</p>
<p>SJG has always had management problems, largely to do with maintaining a consistent editorial vision. (What, me bitter over the demise of In Nomine? Nah&#8230;)</p>
<p>I do think Ron Edwards&#8217; Sorcerer was rather inspired and I&#8217;d still like to run another game someday. But I never got into FATE. And if I run a game nowadays, I&#8217;d be unlikely to use something like GURPS, despite my several shelves full of GURPS supplements, unless my group consists entirely of gaming grognards.</p>
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