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	<title>Comments on: Monte Cook bails on Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/</link>
	<description>The blogs of Tim Hall</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Orton</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-21161</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Orton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2012 22:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-21161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have not played D&amp;D since 2nd edition, my last character being a mage who made it to 35,000 xp short of 18th when the campaign folded.   Does D&amp;D fail at high levels?  Only if you let the mechanics over-rule the story.   And if you stop and think about it, that is when any system will fail.

Champions is the best system I know of for the Superhero genre.   The mechanics fit the frame of reference: I remember having to borrow dice so I could roll a 30d6 Power Neuteralisation (Fire) attack to absorb a huge fireball being thrown at the Houses of Parliament.   But those same mechanics do not work anywhere near as well at the &quot;Agent&quot; level, where skills and degrees of success matter more than raw power.

If you want to game in the &quot;Action Hero&quot; world then you need the Torg rules.   But, despite being specifically designed for genre hopping, the Torg system only really worked in that one style of play.   Its fantasy subsystem simply did not work.

For fantasy, well it depends what you are after.   I was in a rotating GM world which used the Torg rules for a &quot;police procedural&quot; set in a fantasy world.  That worked very well, and better than D&amp;D ever could.

I have used Pacesetter rules for their Space Opera and Time-cop campaigns.   Both worked quite well, though I suspect I would use Torg for Space Opera mechanics in future, Space Opera being a subset of Action Hero, though I might well use the Pacesetter campaign world.

So what sort of world would I use the D&amp;D rules for?   Sorry, but I can&#039;t think of any which cannot be done better in another system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have not played D&amp;D since 2nd edition, my last character being a mage who made it to 35,000 xp short of 18th when the campaign folded.   Does D&amp;D fail at high levels?  Only if you let the mechanics over-rule the story.   And if you stop and think about it, that is when any system will fail.</p>
<p>Champions is the best system I know of for the Superhero genre.   The mechanics fit the frame of reference: I remember having to borrow dice so I could roll a 30d6 Power Neuteralisation (Fire) attack to absorb a huge fireball being thrown at the Houses of Parliament.   But those same mechanics do not work anywhere near as well at the &#8220;Agent&#8221; level, where skills and degrees of success matter more than raw power.</p>
<p>If you want to game in the &#8220;Action Hero&#8221; world then you need the Torg rules.   But, despite being specifically designed for genre hopping, the Torg system only really worked in that one style of play.   Its fantasy subsystem simply did not work.</p>
<p>For fantasy, well it depends what you are after.   I was in a rotating GM world which used the Torg rules for a &#8220;police procedural&#8221; set in a fantasy world.  That worked very well, and better than D&amp;D ever could.</p>
<p>I have used Pacesetter rules for their Space Opera and Time-cop campaigns.   Both worked quite well, though I suspect I would use Torg for Space Opera mechanics in future, Space Opera being a subset of Action Hero, though I might well use the Pacesetter campaign world.</p>
<p>So what sort of world would I use the D&amp;D rules for?   Sorry, but I can&#8217;t think of any which cannot be done better in another system.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-17124</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Benjamin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-17124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m part of the playtest for D&amp;D Next, and I have to say that I am enjoying it.  It&#039;s not AD&amp;D, or 3rd ed., or 4th ed., and yet I am enjoying the playtest.  In that, if they keep things going the way they are, I think the game will be a success.  As to the game changing over the years, I think that the core has remained the same.  Mechanics will change.  I&#039;m sure someone who is a rules lawyer will be frustrated to learn a whole new book full of minutiae, but for the grief they cause me at the table I think they can suffer a bit. ; )  I think the most satisfying thing about the game is the ability to craft a story among my peers, so I&#039;ve never been dissatisfied with the product.  Sometimes the group I&#039;m with lacks the interests I have, and they prefer a constant tide of blood rather than storyline or plot advancement.  They constantly ignore my attempts to create additional ties between the characters.  In this, my struggles have mostly been with the players.  I&#039;ve had some really good DMs though.  Those problems aren&#039;t because of an edition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m part of the playtest for D&amp;D Next, and I have to say that I am enjoying it.  It&#8217;s not AD&amp;D, or 3rd ed., or 4th ed., and yet I am enjoying the playtest.  In that, if they keep things going the way they are, I think the game will be a success.  As to the game changing over the years, I think that the core has remained the same.  Mechanics will change.  I&#8217;m sure someone who is a rules lawyer will be frustrated to learn a whole new book full of minutiae, but for the grief they cause me at the table I think they can suffer a bit. ; )  I think the most satisfying thing about the game is the ability to craft a story among my peers, so I&#8217;ve never been dissatisfied with the product.  Sometimes the group I&#8217;m with lacks the interests I have, and they prefer a constant tide of blood rather than storyline or plot advancement.  They constantly ignore my attempts to create additional ties between the characters.  In this, my struggles have mostly been with the players.  I&#8217;ve had some really good DMs though.  Those problems aren&#8217;t because of an edition.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-15813</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-15813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I last played D&amp;D at 3.0, and didn&#039;t enjoy it much.  Was a convention-style scenario with high-level characters, and all versions of D&amp;D tended to break down at high levels. 

Know what you mean about targeting powergamers; always a risk of power inflation]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I last played D&#038;D at 3.0, and didn&#8217;t enjoy it much.  Was a convention-style scenario with high-level characters, and all versions of D&#038;D tended to break down at high levels. </p>
<p>Know what you mean about targeting powergamers; always a risk of power inflation</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-15812</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-15812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As someone who played a bit of 3.0 (and even 3.5), I have some insight on what happened.

When WotC bought TSR, they were riding high on Magic: The Gathering. I even spoke with Peter Adkison once at great length about their plans, and he was incredibly enthusiastic. He LOVED D&amp;D.

What happened was WotC took the ideas of M:tG and applied them to D&amp;D. Feats, etc, were like cards, and encouraged a certain amount of min-maxing (granted, that was ALWAYS in D&amp;D, back to White Box 1E, which I still have somewhere). When Hasbro got into the mix by acquiring WotC, things changed. Peter left (a very wealthy man), and the nonsense started. 3.5, and then 4.0. 

And now, this.

Me, I&#039;m an old d100 fan, of RQ2 and CoC days. West End&#039;s TORG remains possibly my all-time favorite, but you know what? 3E *was* fun to DM and play.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who played a bit of 3.0 (and even 3.5), I have some insight on what happened.</p>
<p>When WotC bought TSR, they were riding high on Magic: The Gathering. I even spoke with Peter Adkison once at great length about their plans, and he was incredibly enthusiastic. He LOVED D&amp;D.</p>
<p>What happened was WotC took the ideas of M:tG and applied them to D&amp;D. Feats, etc, were like cards, and encouraged a certain amount of min-maxing (granted, that was ALWAYS in D&amp;D, back to White Box 1E, which I still have somewhere). When Hasbro got into the mix by acquiring WotC, things changed. Peter left (a very wealthy man), and the nonsense started. 3.5, and then 4.0. </p>
<p>And now, this.</p>
<p>Me, I&#8217;m an old d100 fan, of RQ2 and CoC days. West End&#8217;s TORG remains possibly my all-time favorite, but you know what? 3E *was* fun to DM and play.</p>
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		<title>By: Wednesday</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-15804</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wednesday]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 21:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-15804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re quite right - the small-press stuff you mention is what I like... and there are some games produced by bigger companies (like Eden Studio&#039;s &quot;All Flesh Must be Eaten&quot; and even White Wolf&#039;s &quot;Adventure!&quot;) where I love the idea of the game and really don&#039;t care how complex they became with expansions and new rules and such... the novelty is all in the ideas behind them - and original fantasy D&amp;D struggled to keep up with it all when a mass of new gaming books exploded onto the scene about ten years back (I say exploded - I just suddenly remember there being a heck of a lot more choice!!!)

There&#039;s a wealth of games to choose from now, and I don&#039;t envy the D&amp;D folks trying to come up with something to capture their share of the audience / participators (and re-capture the old guard). But the biggest problem they face is trying to get people out from behind their computer desks and back into face-to-face gaming.  

Do you think they really have any chance, even if they somehow produce something utterly amazing, of competing with the growing gaming culture of solitude?  &lt;--- actual question, not rhetorical :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re quite right &#8211; the small-press stuff you mention is what I like&#8230; and there are some games produced by bigger companies (like Eden Studio&#8217;s &#8220;All Flesh Must be Eaten&#8221; and even White Wolf&#8217;s &#8220;Adventure!&#8221;) where I love the idea of the game and really don&#8217;t care how complex they became with expansions and new rules and such&#8230; the novelty is all in the ideas behind them &#8211; and original fantasy D&amp;D struggled to keep up with it all when a mass of new gaming books exploded onto the scene about ten years back (I say exploded &#8211; I just suddenly remember there being a heck of a lot more choice!!!)</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a wealth of games to choose from now, and I don&#8217;t envy the D&amp;D folks trying to come up with something to capture their share of the audience / participators (and re-capture the old guard). But the biggest problem they face is trying to get people out from behind their computer desks and back into face-to-face gaming.  </p>
<p>Do you think they really have any chance, even if they somehow produce something utterly amazing, of competing with the growing gaming culture of solitude?  &lt;&#8212; actual question, not rhetorical <img src='http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-15802</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-15802</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with later editions of DnD is that they spent too much effort targetting fans of completely different games - 3rd Ed appeared to be trying to copy GURPS and RIFTS, and resulted in a complex and cumbersome system where you needed a spreadsheet to generate a 1st level character.

4E I don&#039;t really know, but it sounds like a complete ground-up re-write to me, and 5E aims to re-unite the sundered fanbase to pick up disaffected fans of earlier editions. Sounds like a recipe for a sprawling, incoherent mess. What has forked cannot be unforked.

There are a lot of great little small-press games out there which do precisely what you&#039;re wanting. Some are essentially rewritings of early DnD (the so-called &quot;Old School Renaissance&quot;), others have a more story-orientated approach with very simple mechanics. All strip away decades of accreted cruft (&quot;Do we &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; need a rule for this? No? Let&#039;s toss it then&quot;) for a back-to-basics approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with later editions of DnD is that they spent too much effort targetting fans of completely different games &#8211; 3rd Ed appeared to be trying to copy GURPS and RIFTS, and resulted in a complex and cumbersome system where you needed a spreadsheet to generate a 1st level character.</p>
<p>4E I don&#8217;t really know, but it sounds like a complete ground-up re-write to me, and 5E aims to re-unite the sundered fanbase to pick up disaffected fans of earlier editions. Sounds like a recipe for a sprawling, incoherent mess. What has forked cannot be unforked.</p>
<p>There are a lot of great little small-press games out there which do precisely what you&#8217;re wanting. Some are essentially rewritings of early DnD (the so-called &#8220;Old School Renaissance&#8221;), others have a more story-orientated approach with very simple mechanics. All strip away decades of accreted cruft (&#8220;Do we <i>really</i> need a rule for this? No? Let&#8217;s toss it then&#8221;) for a back-to-basics approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Wednesday</title>
		<link>http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/sf-and-gaming/games/monte-cook-bails-on-dungeons-and-dragons-5th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-15801</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wednesday]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kalyr.co.uk/weblog/?p=4417#comment-15801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Call of Cthulhu is my favourite tabletop RPG, in large part for the very same reason that I don&#039;t have much truck with the Official D&amp;D (and off-shoot) systems that developed after the 3rd edition... basically, the whole point of roleplay gaming is to roleplay, and a lot of over-developed systems become really bogged down with the rules and format, rather than just letting the players get on with the fun part of being someone else.

Instead of creating new systems and rules and whatever else they might have planned, I would love to see it just rebooted to make it appealling to the next generation - create a game that promotes imagination over rule-mongering, and entices modern teenagers into trying out something that, when done right, can be truly magical.

But big companies are in it for the profit over game-play these days (look at the ever-spiralling cost of wargaming minatures) and I imagine the final product will be hefty tomes that cost a fortune and spoon-feed the players every step of the way.

Bring back the dungeonmasters who only needed a die and a group of friends to have a good time...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call of Cthulhu is my favourite tabletop RPG, in large part for the very same reason that I don&#8217;t have much truck with the Official D&amp;D (and off-shoot) systems that developed after the 3rd edition&#8230; basically, the whole point of roleplay gaming is to roleplay, and a lot of over-developed systems become really bogged down with the rules and format, rather than just letting the players get on with the fun part of being someone else.</p>
<p>Instead of creating new systems and rules and whatever else they might have planned, I would love to see it just rebooted to make it appealling to the next generation &#8211; create a game that promotes imagination over rule-mongering, and entices modern teenagers into trying out something that, when done right, can be truly magical.</p>
<p>But big companies are in it for the profit over game-play these days (look at the ever-spiralling cost of wargaming minatures) and I imagine the final product will be hefty tomes that cost a fortune and spoon-feed the players every step of the way.</p>
<p>Bring back the dungeonmasters who only needed a die and a group of friends to have a good time&#8230;</p>
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