A question for you all.
When it comes to making a great record, how much is down to the production, and how much depends on the songs themselves?
There is a school of thought that insists that the song is everything, and the best records have stripped-down, simple arrangements shorn of unnecessary ornamentation or instrumentation. But I feel that approach only really works if you’ve got truly great songs to start with. If you’re not Bob Dylan, the right sort of production and some imaginative arrangements are what makes great records out of good songs.
I won’t deny that it’s possible to spoil a good song by overcomplicating things (I own too many later-period Dream Theater releases to be able to say otherwise), and likewise you’ll never have a good record unless you’ve got something worthwhile to start with. As the saying goes, there is no point trying to polish a turd.
There’s a more fundamental question of where you draw the dividing line between songwriting and arrangement anyway. Is the song just the vocal melody and the basic chord progression?
Over to you…
I don’t know where I’d draw the line, but I feel that no amount of superior production can hide a poorly written song. Certainly production can enhance a song or it can detract. Time and time again, I’ve been struck by how much a demo can show the true quality of a song. So, I guess I agree with you – if it’s a turd, Chanel No. 5 won’t hide it.
If it’s a diamond, you may need to wipe off the mud to see it shine.
I was going to comment yesterday, something waffley about how the production can affect how you, the listener, respond to a song when you first hear it – particularly if you’re not paying 100% attention at the time (I know, I know… but it happens).
But then I thought I needed an example.
Demo’s are, perhaps, a good source of relevant examples, but none sprang to mind. Then, today, I was listening to All About Eve in the car. It was their largely unloved last major label album, Ultraviolet. (I do like it, but it took some getting used to, and I’ve always thought it was poorly mixed, what with Julianne’s voice being somewhat ‘buried’ in a slightly murky collection of guitar noises*.)
Possibly an example of poor production choices burying the chances of an album (and band; they were dumped by the label after this).
Eventually, an “alternative” mix of one of the songs emerged. It was much cleaner and the vocals were higher in the mix, just as many of the fans thought they should have been. But don’t take my word for it; Grooveshark has streamable AAE…
Here is the original version of “I Don’t Know”, released on Ultraviolet.
Here is the “alternative” version of “I Don’t Know”, released some years later on the anthology, Keepsakes.
Hope that works. I haven’t linked to Grooveshark before…
*Guitar noises provided by Marty Willson-Piper of The Church, who I understand is slightly inclined towards the “Prog” end of things.
Without a song, the production is rather moot, in my opinion. Yes, over-production can ruin a good thing, but you do need a song to start with.
The best live bands prove that night in and night out.
I was thinking of production covering things like arrangements and instrumentation as well as mixing and mastering; with the song being the basic structure, chords, melody and lyrics.
I’ve often wondered what a good outside producer could have done with Mostly Autumn’s much-criticised “Heart Full of Sky”. It did suffer from a horrible “loudness wars” over-compressed mastering, but there are so many places where you feel the arrangements needed more work even though the basics were there.
whilst the production can effect how appealing a song is to the listener, I think there has to be some substance to the song in the first place. What the something is depends upon genre, talents of the artist involved and so on, but I do think a good song can survive bad production, but the best production in the world won’t save a rubbish song.
I agree with Zalamanda’s example and suggest Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds album “Henry’s Dream”, the production is too clean and full, the band released a live album largely of songs from it afterwards because it wasn’t how they wanted the songs to sound, the songs work, but were harder to love in the recorded form.